Bhaggava, I understand the origin of the world. I understand this, and what goes beyond it. Yet since I do not misapprehend that understanding, I have realized extinguishment within myself. Directly knowing this, the Realized One does not come to ruin.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who describe the origin of the world in their tradition as created by the Lord God, by Brahmā. I go up to them and say, ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answer, ‘Yes’. I say to them, ‘But how do you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about as created by the Lord God, by Brahmā?’ But they cannot answer, and they even question me in return. So I answer them,

‘There comes a time when, reverends, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos contracts. As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos expands. As it expands an empty mansion of Brahmā appears. Then a certain sentient being—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—passes away from that host of radiant deities and is reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

But after staying there all alone for a long time, they become dissatisfied and anxious, “Oh, if only another being would come to this state of existence.”

Then other sentient beings—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—pass away from that host of radiant deities and are reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā in company with that being. There they too are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

Now, the being who was reborn there first thinks, “I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the Best, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. Why is that? Because first I thought, ‘Oh, if only another being would come to this state of existence.’ Such was my heart’s wish, and then these creatures came to this state of existence.”

And the beings who were reborn there later also think, “This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the Best, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. And we have been created by him. Why is that? Because we see that he was reborn here first, and we arrived later.”

And the being who was reborn first is more long-lived, beautiful, and illustrious than those who arrived later.

It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect that past life, but no further.

They say: “He who is Brahmā—the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the Best, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born—is permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, remaining the same for all eternity. We who were created by that Brahmā are impermanent, not lasting, short-lived, perishable, and have come to this state of existence.” This is how you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about as created by the Lord God, by Brahmā.’

They say, ‘That is what we have heard, Reverend Gotama, just as you say.’

Bhaggava, I understand the origin of the world. I understand this, and what goes beyond it. Yet since I do not misapprehend that understanding, I have realized extinguishment within myself. Directly knowing this, the Realized One does not come to ruin.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who describe the origin of the world in their tradition as due to those depraved by play. I go up to them and say, ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answer, ‘Yes’. I say to them, ‘But how do you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about due to those depraved by play?’ But they cannot answer, and they even question me in return. So I answer them,

‘Reverends, there are gods named “depraved by play”. They spend too much time laughing, playing, and making merry. And in doing so, they lose their mindfulness, and they pass away from that host of gods.

It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect that past life, but no further.

They say, “The gods not depraved by play don’t spend too much time laughing, playing, and making merry. So they don’t lose their mindfulness, and don’t pass away from that host of gods. They are permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, remaining the same for all eternity. But we who were depraved by play spent too much time laughing, playing, and making merry. In doing so, we lost our mindfulness, and passed away from that host of gods. We are impermanent, not lasting, short-lived, perishable, and have come to this state of existence.” This is how you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about due to those depraved by play.’

They say, ‘That is what we have heard, Reverend Gotama, just as you say.’

Bhaggava, I understand the origin of the world. Directly knowing this, the Realized One does not come to ruin.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who describe the origin of the world in their tradition as due to those who are malevolent. I go up to them and say, ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answer, ‘Yes’. I say to them, ‘But how do you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about due to those who are malevolent?’ But they cannot answer, and they even question me in return. So I answer them,

‘Reverends, there are gods named “malevolent”. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that host of gods.

It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect that past life, but no further.

They say, “The gods who are not malevolent don’t spend too much time gazing at each other, so they don’t grow angry with each other, their bodies and minds don’t get tired, and they don’t pass away from that host of gods. They are permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, remaining the same for all eternity. But we who were malevolent spent too much time gazing at each other, so our minds grew angry with each other, our bodies and minds got tired, and we passed away from that host of gods. We are impermanent, not lasting, short-lived, perishable, and have come to this state of existence.” This is how you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about due to those who are malevolent.’

They say, ‘That is what we have heard, Reverend Gotama, just as you say.’

Bhaggava, I understand the origin of the world. Directly knowing this, the Realized One does not come to ruin.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who describe the origin of the world in their tradition as having arisen by chance. I go up to them and say, ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answer, ‘Yes’. I say to them, ‘But how do you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about by chance?’ But they cannot answer, and they even question me in return. So I answer them,

‘Reverends, there are gods named “non-percipient beings”. When perception arises they pass away from that host of gods.

It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect the arising of perception, but no further.

They say, “The self and the cosmos arose by chance. Why is that? Because formerly I didn’t exist. Now from not being I’ve changed into being.” This is how you describe in your tradition that the origin of the world came about by chance.’

They say, ‘That is what we have heard, Reverend Gotama, just as you say.’

I understand this, and what goes beyond it. Yet since I do not misapprehend that understanding, I have realized extinguishment within myself. Directly knowing this, the Realized One does not come to ruin.

Though I speak and explain like this, certain ascetics and brahmins misrepresent me with the false, hollow, lying, untruthful claim: ‘The ascetic Gotama has a distorted perspective, and so have his monks.

He says, “When one enters and remains in the liberation of the beautiful, at that time one only perceives what is ugly.”

But I don’t say that. I say this: “When one enters and remains in the liberation of the beautiful, at that time one only perceives what is beautiful.”’”

“They are the ones with a distorted perspective, sir, who regard the Buddha and the mendicants in this way. Sir, I am quite confident that the Buddha is capable of teaching me so that I can enter and remain in the liberation on the beautiful.”

“It’s hard for you to enter and remain in the liberation on the beautiful, since you have a different view, creed, preference, practice, and tradition. Come now, Bhaggava, carefully preserve the confidence that you have in me.”

“If it’s hard for me to enter and remain in the liberation on the beautiful, since I have a different view, creed, preference, practice, and tradition, I shall carefully preserve the confidence that I have in the Buddha.”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the wanderer Bhaggavagotta was happy with what the Buddha said.