Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, chieftain? Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they gods or humans?”

“They are in the other world, Master Kassapa, and they are gods, not humans.”

“By this method it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

“Even though Master Kassapa says this, still I think that there’s no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”

“There is, Master Kassapa.”

“How, exactly, chieftain?”

“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Sirs, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; and are covetous, malicious, and have wrong view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. If that happens, sirs, come and tell me that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is the method by which I prove that there’s no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”